Podcasts can be a total waste of time or an invaluable source of information and insights. One of the latter is my favourite, Huberman Lab, run by Professor Andrew Huberman from Stanford School of Medicine.

Dr Huberman makes neuroscience accessible, and his podcasts deep dive into various areas of human experience. He brings to his vlogs/podcasts visitors from business, science, and exciting stakeholder groups to discuss and share their experiences and knowledge.

Yesterday, while bushwalking in the magically beautiful Butterly Creek track, I listened to his latest podcast, 'Chris Voss: How to Succeed at Hard Conversations'.

His guest, Chris Voss, is a former FBI agent who was the lead negotiator in several high-profile and high-risk cases. He told stories of some of those challenging negotiations with terrorists and kidnappers and also examples of ordinary life negotiation situations.

Huberman Lab website has a great list of background materials about Chris Voss, so I won't go deeper into those, but give you one example that shook my mind. I give you a hint: it's about negotiations.

But first, you need to have a bit of context.

On Friday, I was at the busy Westfield shopping mall trying to find the voting station to cast my political shadow on those I think don't deserve to be elected by voting for somebody else.

I went to the information kiosk, the local version of ChatGPT in the flesh, and stood in a queue waiting my turn. A couple of elderly ladies were before me, and at the counter was a young mother with two children, a cute girl about three and a bit older boy, maybe five years old.

The boy was lively and bored. The mother tried to rent a cart for two children to make her life easier while shopping and entertain both children to keep them in one place. The lady at the counter was a young student with heavy makeup and more interested in her mobile phone.

Imagine David William's famous 'Computer-says-no' lady's teenage niece. That's her at the serving side of the information desk.

Ms Williams (let's call the girl that name because I don't have anything else in mind) finally put her phone aside and looked at the young mother. She said nothing but waited for the mother to explain what she needed or wanted. She looked at the boy from behind her chopstick-length eyelashes and said he was too tall for the cart.

"But last week, we got the cart," explained the mother. And Ms Williams responded, "They grow fast. Put him against the measure on that pillar where the measure is," ordered Ms Williams.

The mother dragged her son to show he had met the criteria, but from her ivory tower, Ms Williams said, "See, too tall".

"I can take his shoes off; they have at least 3 cm soles," said the mother with such a red face that a certain reindeer would have been envious.

"You are holding the line," exclaimed Ms Williams, which was the story's end. The mother dragged her children away, and one of the elderly ladies asked with a frail voice, "Why did you do that? The boy wasn't that big".

"The rules are there for a reason," answered Ms Williams, "What can I do for you?"

"Nothing," said the elderly lady, pushing her walker from Ms Williams and her rulebox as far as she could. I followed suit and managed to find the voting site by myself. From the corner of my eye, I saw Ms Williams picking up her phone and continuing her much more meaningful conversation than serving customers would have been.

What would you have done in such a situation?

I am still kicking myself because I didn't do anything. I was observing with disgust and disbelief how MS Williams forced the poor mother into a corner. I didn't go into a negotiation to help her change the situation's dynamics.

The power balance was not in favour of the mother. But it was an ethically imbalanced situation. And I feel that we should take action when we see these things happen.

If I had listened to Huberman Lab's podcast and Chris Voss before, I would have jumped to the situation and been able to save the day for the young mother. I still feel shame that I didn't.

One of the critical elements that Chris Voss talked about in negotiation situations is a negotiation mindset. It means that your ego, likes, or dislikes do not drive you but can listen and hear the whole story.

In my Westfield example, I didn't like the outlook of Ms Williams, and her makeup and behaviour blurred my mind. Instead, I should have used 'tactical empathy' and be more aware of her drivers. Maybe she had to work because her parents couldn't support her; she was deeply insecure and had to build this high, almost impenetrable wall of cosmetics to protect her shaky core. Maybe. And many more maybes.

Maybe I should have been using what Chris Voss called emotional lubricants and entered the situation to support both parties to make them realise that there would be a better emotional reward for both of them if the rules were not always strictly followed in the letter.

You know by observing but learn by practising

What was the biggest lesson for me? Use proactive listening without your ego in the way. Don't assume, but ask open questions and use this brilliant concept of tactical empathy to bring the opposite side to close a better deal for both.

And one more thing from the podcast: Chris Voss was adamant that if somebody suggests a win-win deal, that person is after your money and won't give anything in return. Don't let them put their sticky fingers in your pockets.

A true win-win comes from collaboration, not from sleazy tactics and clever use of words to paint a picture with fog without a frame. Proactive listening, self-restoration, humour and generosity are the path to better outcomes.

I wish I had listened to this podcast before I went to the mall.

I hope you will have a great week and fruitful negotiations. After all, life is not about compromises but finding better ways to reach common goals together.

Ngā Mihi,

Jussi

_{This week’s book: Factfulness}

My Medium Articles from the last week.

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